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8/3/2010
Rail has worked? Are you kidding me?
Lots of coverage of Wisconsin’s own infamous high-speed-rail-to-be project last week when Toyota-bashing Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood made a stop to hand off a few million bucks for more planning and engineering of this future white elephant.
A second federal payout toward the $817.6 million high-speed rail line between Milwaukee and Madison is accelerating debate among the state’s gubernatorial candidates.
Wisconsin officials joined U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood in Watertown Thursday to announce the state received $46.5 million from the overall $810 in federal stimulus money largely paying for the project.
Gov. Jim Doyle said 5,500 state jobs would be connected to developing and installing the rail line.
…. “We know that rail has worked,” said Paul Walzak, communication director for Barrett. “Only in an election year would (high-speed) rail be turned into demagoguery.”
I screamed about the millions being dumped willy-nilly into this thing. I screamed about the manic claim of thousands of jobs. I screamed about Ray LaHood’s smugness – how dare he come here and hand over all that cash as if it were nothing?
My buddy Tim Haering said LaHood and Doyle looked “like a couple of shifty boys at the hobby shop pretending they’re using paper route money to buy a fancy train set, when they really robbed their siblings’ piggy banks.” Hear, hear. He was incensed over the whole thing too – mostly the seemingly off-handed claim that “rail works.”
WHAT THE HELLLLLL does THAT mean?!?!!! I"ve never heard such disingenuous double talk. Reminds me of John Lennon's ridiculous "Give Peace a chance." A chance to what? Peace never solved anything. Peace is not an action but a lack of action. Like cold is the absence of heat… [etc… there was more! Tim concluded his rant…] Rail works? Yeah, them trains stay on the track and get where they're going most of the time.
Well said Tim. Geeeez.
Jo Egelhoff, FoxPolitics.net
COMMENTS
OK.... so war is better than peace?
Sorry, I was taught better moral values than that. Or perhaps he is just not very bright.
Dean Weichmann (Tue Aug 03 07:38:02 2010)
When trains got their start we didn't have planes. Today trains are obsolete, but that seems not to matter when Pols with no skin in the game support make-believe projects to justify their jobs. The politicians get paid nonetheless, and instead should be on a pay-for-performance basis. But the Pols have to implement the pay changes and won't, so the public's only choice is a 100% turnover in November. For a lot of reasons.
Jack Lohman (Tue Aug 03 07:42:03 2010)
I remember hearing Ray Lahood talking on public radio. He spoke so casually about getting money from Congress and asking for more. To paraphrase - without exaggerating in any way: "well we got 8 billion from Congress for this, and it got used up pretty fast. So we're gonna ask Congress for another 10 billion for this project, and if they'll just give us another 10 billion we'll be able to move ahead with..."etc.
I sat in my car trying to call the show to ask the man whose money he'd spent and who's money was he asking for. He was throwing around tens of billions of dollars at a time, and as though Congress was sitting around with trillions in the bank just waiting to dish it out.
I can see Nosferatu (Doyle) just giving him a call to say, "hey Ray, I was thinking we could use some rail, you know, it's in. Could help my legacy you know. But my people probably won't do it without a little incentive - they don't want to foot the whole bill themselves. Can you help me get some of that dough? (mmmm, I am hungry for bloooood...)"
Two peas in a freakin' pod. And a fast train to sh** creek. I can't wait until November!
Andrew Ellis (Tue Aug 03 08:39:16 2010)
I heard that for overnight delivery of important state communications Doyle and company are considering bringing back the pony express. Imagine all the jobs that would bring.
Jo, can you check and see if this is true?
David (Tue Aug 03 08:47:03 2010)
Can anyone site for me some examples of rail failures and rail successes? How do we define success or failure for a rail line - specifically? Has anyone done a study like that for this project?
I disagree with counting jobs created during the construction as a component of the rail line's success by the way; you could build a pyramid if your aim was only to employ, and it would be a longer lasting tribute to its builder.
Brian (Tue Aug 03 09:36:11 2010)
Oh come on... Tim thinks that it's better to go to war than to build infrastructure at home?? Think of the money spent on military, for what? To kill people who happen to be in the wrong place. Osama bin Laden is still out there as far as we know and why did we invade Iraq in the first place?
What has been spent in Iraq, (not even accounted for Jo) compared to the high speed rail proposal? Which is better for stimulating the economy?
Dean Weichmann (Tue Aug 03 09:44:31 2010)
Funneee, David. I heard a similar rumor but it involved Greek runners.
As far as I know there's only one rail system in the US that operates in the black and that's the Eastern corridor.
The reason Japan can support rail is because their population is so dense the trains are full all the time. That's the clue.
I have neighbors the closest of whom is about 200 feet away and the rest about a quarter of a mile away. That's why rail, light or not, will never even approach recovering its own cost in this state.
That plus the fare (absolutely ridiculous!)will ensure that practically no one will ride the train unless they can come up with an idea like a Party Train for rich people whose idea of a good time is being dumped off 6 miles from Madison.
C. R. Stevenson (Tue Aug 03 09:45:20 2010)
Mr. Weichmann,
>> Sorry, I was taught better moral values than that. Or perhaps he is just not very bright. <<
The image that springs to mind is of that 60's flower child inserting a daisy into the gun barrel of a National Guardsman.
We can only "give peace a chance" if both sides in a dispute are willing. I don't know about you, but that doesn't usually happen until both sides are pretty beat up after giving war a chance.
Wishing that both sides would "give peace a chance" isn't "moral" or "bright", it's just wishful thinking; about as useful as most wishes. Claiming some sort of high ground because one's wishes are more "moral" than another's is awfully thin gruel when it comes to solving intractable problems.
I suppose that wishing that everyone see the "wisdom" of socialism, universal health care, or funding for the National Endowment for the Arts is "moral", too.
Steve Erbach, Neenah (Tue Aug 03 10:24:49 2010)
Brian, >> Can anyone site for me some examples of rail failures and rail successes? How do we define success or failure for a rail line - specifically? Has anyone done a study like that for this project? << Here are two publications for you to check out: 1) "The Best-Laid Plans: How Government Planning Harms Your Quality of Life, Your Pocketbook, and Your Future" by Randal O'Toole. There's a chapter in the book on rail transportation planning. 2) A Cato Institute Policy Analysis: "Defining Success: The Case against Rail Transit"
Steve Erbach, Neenah (Tue Aug 03 10:32:22 2010)
Lets have truth in budgeting all the way around. Lets take the cost of protecting global oil supplies (military)and add the externalized environmental damage of our auto dependent society (carbon tax). Then, lets auction oil leases to the highest bidder as if the land was privately owned. Now, add these costs to gasoline in the form of a gas tax, in addition to the gas tax that supports road construction. What would be the price of a gallon of gas? What would be the viability of mass transit? I'm no fan of a Milwaukee to Madison line. But, to assume that trains are simply not viable because of something intrinsic, unique to the geography of the USA is too simplified. The big reason why various forms of mass transit fail is because the overhead of supporting our auto addicted lifestyle is buried in many places. Mass transit subsidies are in plain sight for someone to simply add up.
dave allen (Tue Aug 03 11:13:33 2010)
"We can only "give peace a chance" if both sides in a dispute are willing. I don't know about you, but that doesn't usually happen until both sides are pretty beat up after giving war a chance."
I understand your point, and defence is important. How was the invasion of Iraq a defence of our country?
Given a choice, is spending on war better than roads, bridges, rail, lock and dams, wind energy,solar energy, social programs....
Dean Weichmann (Tue Aug 03 11:47:50 2010)
"As of February 2010, around $704 billion has been spent based on estimates of current expenditure rates[1], which range from the Congressional Research Service (CRS) estimate of $2 billion per week to $12 billion a month, an estimate by economist Joseph Stiglitz.[2]"
"Wisconsin officials joined U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood in Watertown Thursday to announce the state received $46.5 million from the overall $810 in federal stimulus money largely paying for the project. "
So, one week ($2 billion)of the Iraq war could have paid for more than two times the federal stimulus funds proposed to pay for high speed rail.
Dean Weichmann (Tue Aug 03 12:27:00 2010)
Funny how Iraq came into this. Funniew how when people hear my strong aversion to our occupation there they immdeiately assume I am a flaming liberal. Real conservatives aren't interested in hijacking American's hard earned dollars to police the planet.
Andrew Ellis (Tue Aug 03 22:06:19 2010)
I did not say war is better than peace. Here is my point: I walk over, slap you and take your lunch. Stop that with peace. Conflict is eternal, peace ephemeral. And don't forget the main point: Rail has worked, but cars have worked better.
tim haering (Wed Aug 04 09:00:51 2010)
***I"ve never heard such disingenuous double talk. Reminds me of John Lennon's ridiculous "Give Peace a chance." A chance to what? Peace never solved anything. Peace is not an action but a lack of action. Like cold is the absence of heat***
Gee Tim, was this quote out of context? It sure sounds to me like you prefer war.
As to you slapping someone and taking their lunch, as I said defense is important. Sometimes you need to defend yourself.
You are being an aggressor and the meme of "give peace a chance" is directed to you.
Yesterday I heard a story about Louis Armstrong being accosted by a man who said to him "I hate niggers". Armstrong engaged in thoughtful conversation with the man. They ended up as friends.
Dean Weichmann (Wed Aug 04 09:56:38 2010)
Dean, the discussion is about trains. Trains. Get over the reference to John Lennon.
Jo (Wed Aug 04 10:38:56 2010)
Jo, I answered Tim's response. If you paid attention most of my posts concerned the relative size of the stimulus compared to the expenditure for war.
As far as trains and cars, somehow the cost of building and maintaining roads plus the cost of a car and the gas to power it are being ignored.
Brian had asked for info on high speed rail, here is a link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail#Comparison_with_other_modes_of_transport
I have yet to see a comparison based on cost per passenger mile. Do you have such a comparison?
By the way, from Andrew Ellis;
***To paraphrase - without exaggerating in any way: "well we got 8 billion from Congress for this, and it got used up pretty fast. So we're gonna ask Congress for another 10 billion for this project, and if they'll just give us another 10 billion we'll be able to move ahead with..."etc.***
From your post;
***$817.6 million high-speed rail line***
Which is right, million or billion?
Dean Weichmann (Wed Aug 04 13:04:38 2010)
Revising its previous study, Mobility Planning Associates, of Austin, Texas has calculated the average fully allocated total cost (capital operating) of urban automobile transportation in typical use for both work-commute and other purposes.
This cost in Year 2000 dollars is calculated to be $1.25 per passenger-mile.
http://www.lightrailnow.org/facts/fa_00016.htm
Dean Weichmann (Wed Aug 04 17:29:58 2010)
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